Having Kids: Is It Worth It?

Having Kids Is It Worth It - picture of diverse kids with backpacks smiling at camera

This article may contain references to some of our advertising partners. Should you click on these links, we may be compensated. For more about our advertising policies, read our full disclosure statement here.

Recently, having kids has become a hot topic in the personal finance world.  I certainly don’t blame anyone for taking their finances into consideration before deciding to have kids.  And, quite frankly, I think we’d be better off as a society if more people took the time to ask a few questions before getting preggers. That isn’t to say that having children is ever a mistake. However, there is a lot that goes into being a parent which seems to get forgotten – financial issues included.

Having Kids: An Exhausting Endeavor

The entire process of having children is insanely expensive in time, effort, and money.  Bringing a baby home from the hospital is exciting, stressful, and exhausting, all at the same time.  Newborns are completely helpless, and in the beginning they need constant attention and care.  And, unless you want a baby hanging off your boob at all hours of the day and night, you have to purchase formula.  Then there are bottles, clothes, and diapers to buy.  Babies and small children go to the doctor often and need things like teething cream and baby Tylenol.  All of those expenses add up.

Once babies start getting bigger, they outgrow their clothes at an unbelievable rate.  Or they throw up on them.  Or crap their pants and leave them stained beyond recognition.  Regardless, you have to buy them a ton of stuff to wear, including those adorable little shoes for their growing feet.  Once they become toddlers, they eventually start asking for things.  Swingsets, toys, and princess dresses come to mind.  If you are like me, you try to tell them “no” as much as you possibly can.  But you can’t always say no.  Despite my frugality, I have been guilted into things such as bounce houses on birthdays and trips to the ice cream shop.  I try, but it’s often hard to always say no to their smiling little faces.  I love saving money, but I also love seeing my children surprised or excited.  Sometimes those experiences cost money.

Pregnancy is Crazy

As if the financial aspect wasn’t enough, there is so much more to consider before having kids.  Being pregnant is basically a one-year commitment.  That is a long time to have somebody sitting on your bladder, kicking and elbowing you from the inside.  I’ve often told Greg that I wish I could’ve  just laid an egg so that we could take turns sitting on it.  Unfortunately, that wasn’t an option.

An Amazing Investment

Yes, kids are expensive. On the other hand, I consider the investment in my children the best money that I have ever spent.  There is nothing that has ever made me happier, more fulfilled, or more proud than my two young daughters.  This joy is a feeling that you cannot understand until you become a parent yourself, and it’s the reason that people forget how miserable they were when they were pregnant. It is why they forget about how much money their children actually cost.  Kids may be hard on your wallet, but there are things on this earth more precious than early retirement, investment accounts, or (even) traveling the world.

Being a parent has completed my life in more ways than I ever thought possible,  and I feel lucky that I didn’t question it too much.  If I would’ve taken the time to think it through, I could have easily decided that I didn’t want to be tied down.  If I would’ve over-analyzed the situation, I could’ve missed out on the most amazing thing that has ever happened to me.

You Didn’t Ask, But…

Here’s my unsolicited advice to anyone wondering if they are financially ready for children:

The fact that you are even asking questions means that you are probably more mature and prepared than most people.  You will find a way to make it work.  You may have to make sacrifices.  You might have to give a few things up.  But, it will be worth it.  Don’t take my word for it….ask every parent you know.  And when you do, be prepared to hear gushing stories like this one and to see tears in the corners of their eyes.

Are kids worth it?  Oh yes, they’re worth it.

Every ache and pain.  Every sleepless night.  Every cent.

 

Having Kids: Is it Worth it?
My pint-sized soulmates
 You want more thoughts on parenting and money? BOOM! Ask and you shall receive:

Similar Posts

Disclaimer: Comments, responses, and other user-generated content is not provided or commissioned by this site or our advertisers. Responses have not been reviewed, approved or otherwise endorsed by this website or our advertisers. It is not the responsibility of our advertisers or this website to ensure that all comments and/or questions are answered. Club Thrifty has partnered with CardRatings for our coverage of credit card products. Club Thrifty and CardRatings may receive a commission from card issuers.

95 Comments

  1. From a strictly financial sense, kids aren’t worth it. You’ll spend way more on them then you’ll get back.

    Psychologically, whether kids are worth it probably depends on the individual. I know lots of people who were meant to be parents. They always wanted kids, had them, and it seems to be a great experience for them. And I know plenty of other people who want nothing to do with kids.

    1. I think for most parents, there is absolutely no price high enough for having a child. SO maybe for you, kids aren’t worth it financially, but that’s because you have different financial priorities.
      There are some things money can’t buy…and money is definitely not EVERYTHING. Kids prove that.

    2. Have to agree – if you remove all emotional factors and purely look at it in terms of numbers/ROI, there really isn’t a case to be had.

      That said, I would like kids myself… eventually… like buying a house, it’s not a purely financial decision.

  2. Holly, Thanks so much for expanding on your earlier comment on our post. =) This is something that we’re definitely not done thinking about and really appreciate getting lots of perspectives. And your girls are absolutely adorable!

  3. Great post Holly : ) My wife and I have both said we’d be happy with or without kids, but I am pretty certain we will have them someday. It seems like the only universal rules with having children is that there is never a perfect time to have them and they are going to be expensive. But I’ve also heard everyone say they are always worth it in the end, regardless of the financial (or loss of sleep) cost. Cute kids, by the way!

  4. “The fact that you are even asking questions means that you are probably more mature and prepared than most people. You will find a way to make it work. You may have to make sacrifices. You might have to give a few things up. But, it will be worth it. ” I could not agree more Holly! Asking those questions does show that people are thinking through things and are at a level that other are not.

    As you well know, they are a lot of work. I wish I had a dollar for every time I had some sort of bodily fluid unloaded on me. But, at the end of the day, it is most definitely worth it. Having kids is priceless and probably my favorite thing in the world to be. I know they’re not for everyone, and that’s ok. I do think though that the argument that they cost too much is missing the point by a mile. Not everything is about the cost, life is meant to be fun & enjoyed and (at least for us) kids play such a huge part of that. Love the post!

    1. It is priceless. But you’re right, they are a lot of work. My youngest cried for 30 minutes straight this morning. I was ready to drop her off at daycare!

    2. eemusings says:

      Yeah, that paragraph really resonated with me too. We don’t have kids (yet) but I think I can safely say we have already put more thought into the matter than any of the other people we know who are our age and already have kids…

  5. Holly, what a wonderful post. I have to reiterate that having children brings such amazing emotional blessings that it is almost inconceivable. Someone said to me once, when we were deciding on whether or not to have #4, “You may regret not having a kid, but you’ll never regret it once you have him/her.” I have found this to be so true, not just with me, but even with my friends who never wanted kids but ended up with them anyway. Homeschooling 4 kids leaves us simply exhausted by the end of the day, yet, I miss them terribly when I’m away for even a few hours. You could offer me any material dollar amount or thing on the face of this earth in place of having had kids, but knowing what I know now, I wouldn’t trade our life with kids for anything. Kudos to all who forego having kids because they know they don’t want them, but to those on the fence, know that the blessings of children are immeasurable. Holly, thank you for a wonderful, heartwarming post. 🙂

    1. I agree! I wouldn’t trade mine for anything either!

  6. Not everybody wants kids, and that’s ok.

    And yes, there are a few women who, in the anonymity of a mommy forum will admit that they wish they hadn’t had them. Not the majority, but having kids and regretting that choice must be the most awful thing ever. Add to that the parents who abandon their kids and don’t pay child-support…

    I wouldn’t tell someone on the fence to have kids or to wait. It is such a personal decision that only those people can make that decision.

    My kids, of course, are adorable and perfect, and make parenting look easy and desirable when we’re out in public. But that’s all the advertising I’m willing to do for folks on the fence. (And I do adorable sleep-deprived things like accidentally wear two different black shoes to work.)

    1. LOL, I have worn two mismatched black shoes to work as well!

      There are probably a handful of women who regret having kids. And the people who abandon their kids are just plain crazy. I don’t think they count. =/

  7. It’s worth it if you want them! I don’t want to have kids so it wouldn’t be worth it to me. However, I enjoy other people’s children. Someone has to be the bad influence around here, and I’m good at that sort of thing.

    1. If you don’t want kids then it makes perfect sense not to have them~!!!!!

  8. I have two daughters under the age of two (one is 20 months, the other 6 months) and I don’t really think kids are as expensive as everyone else does for some reason. We use Amazon subscribe and save for diapers every month which runs us about $70. We bought all of our formula during the pregnancies, so once the babies were born, we were prepared for when the milk dried up. We buy all of our clothes at thrift stores, so we spend almost nothing on that, but they still look awesome.

    The biggest expenses are the the non-necessities. Like taking the kids to the Easter Bunny yesterday at the mall. It was definitely worth it, but it was $25 I wouldn’t have otherwise spent.

    1. My biggest expenses for my kids were just my healthcare costs for delivery. It was something like $2800 the first time and $4000 the second time.
      They really aren’t that expensive if you do things right. I breastfed for a while for both of my kids and that was free. With my first, I bought generic Target formula and it did the trick. For my second child, I got a ton of Similac at a deep discount or free using coupons.

      My biggest expense for them now is daycare.

  9. Great post!
    I have absolutely no desire to have kids, which is probably a good thing, since I’m only 23! I do, however, have 13 nieces and nephews and they are all awesome and I absolutely adore them. I think that most people should probably give child bearing a little more consideration than they do, but I have no doubt that anyone in the PF world will give it more than enough consideration.
    In the end, having kids won’t be a good financial decision, but lots of the best parts of life aren’t good financial decisions. The whole point of making good financial decisions in the first place is so we can afford the bad ones!

    1. I didn’t want kids at 23 either! Nieces and nephews are the best because you can just love on them without taking all of the responsibility =)

      1. THIS. I love, love, LOVE being an aunt. Though I do feel very responsible for my niece and nephew when I watch them, and I worry over them a lot, though I would bet my eye teeth not nearly as much as their parents do!

  10. Great post! We want kids but not for awhile. I do think they are worth it! I could never say no to a kid just because of the expenses.

  11. anonymous says:

    No, kids are not worth it. I have 2 daughters. I was overjoyed with glee when they became teenagers and said to my face: I hate you! Gosh that felt good.

    Both my girls are in their 30’s and the only way we all get along is: the less we see of each other, the better.

      1. Um….somehow I think this won’t get better being that they are “in their 30s”, but who knows?

        The problem is is when you ask someone with kids “Is it worth it?” And they say “Hell yes”…..I rarely see that they have yet made it to teenage[doom]. They are still taking in the spectacular wonder of the milestones, fast changing development and general discovery of the world. When they hit 13 though and you’ve spent a fortune, about a million extra grey hairs, an extra 50 lbs, a long gone sex life, a career and a sense of self on them alone and they tell you they hate you and don’t give a crap about any of it……I think that cuddly wuddly sense may dissipate……just a little maybe? lol

        1. Kids are normal people just like everyone else. If you want them to end up loving you then you need to actually work on making it happen. I’m 16 years old and I am grateful for my parents, especially my dad, he is awesome! Make your kids your best friends or something. Also I’m pretty sure you were a teen once as well. If you told your parents you hated them out of frustration or anger, there’s a chance you didn’t really meant it because teenagers have trouble controlling emotions.

  12. While I agree with the sentiment that kids are worth it (I wasn’t sure if I was, and am SO SO glad Cheryl talked me through the logic), I’d say this: studies show that if you’re in high school and single and about to have a kid, you’ve totally f%#@ed yourself. There’s nearly no way out of that financial black hole and you’re going to have a crappy, desperate life. Avoid having children until you’ve secured your education if possible.

    I’m not saying that to be mean, and I’m sure that the “exceptions to the rule” will answer this comment….but before anyone gets angry on me, check out the statistics.

    Awesome pic, by the way. No wonder you’re a proud mommy!

    1. I know people who’ve managed to be successful despite getting pregnant in high school, but it does make it a much harder road to travel. I would have been a terrible teenage mother. Hell, I would have been a terrible mother in my early twenties!

  13. I just recently wrote a post on how the only reason I may want kids is to take care of me when I’m older. I’m sure its worth it, especially to the couples who want them. Aside from financial reasons, I have my other reasons of possibly leaning towards not having them. A couple of my friends seemed shocked, but many of my friends feel the same way. Although I think they will have kids eventually. I’ll end up being the cool, fun aunt.

    1. Hey, there’s nothing wrong with that. If you don’t want kids, you shouldn’t have them!!! Being an aunt is awesome.

    2. People actually used to have to kids for that very reason (also to help out on the farm and then work and contribute to the family til). The problem is now they sit on their a$$ and play video games, spending your money and then put you in a home. I forgot who it was who said “Children these days are economically worthless but emotionally [priceless]? Anyway, something like that.

  14. Like many folks interested in personal finance, I too was scared about being able to afford kids. This post helps point out the non-finanical rewards that children bring into our lives. I flipped through a friend’s photos of her family trip to Disney, and I literally smiled from ear to ear the entire time. That’s when I knew for sure I want to have kids.

    1. Awwww…..I know just what you mean! I felt the same way seeing friends have children before we did.

  15. I was pretty sure I wanted a kid and I knew my wife always wanted them. So we decided to give it a go. Now I have this little guy who is exploring the world and facinated by the simpliest things and it makes me feel better than any amount of money could. He is constantly smiling and recently started singing my praises to everyone who is within ear shot (da da da da da).

    In the end if you are too look at is as a numbers game, then you will always be able to talk yourself out of kids. Having kids is one of the few ways that you will ever truely live forever…

    1. Oooohhhh….I agree with that. Having children means leaving a legacy and (hopefully) leaving behind the lessons that you taught them.

  16. As I new parent, I can totally agree with this. I went back and forth about the finances before we thought about having a kid, but once they are here, you will do anything for them. Not everything is about money and I will do my best to make sure that I teach my son about anything and everything there is to this world. I feel that I am here to make sure that we still have some people in the world that have common sense. We can teach our kids the things that will be needed for the future and hopefully they will be able to be a difference maker when they are older.

  17. I know that I want to be in a good financial place (steady job, decent salary, have a big enough apartment/house) before I have kids, but I also know that having children is the most important thing for me in life. I guess I`m a very caring person, and love taking care of others, and I´ve been wanting children for years (and I`m still only 24). I don`t think it`s possible to compare a life with money. Heck, if you think about it, all of us adults are quite expensive also, but I don`t see people regretting living!!

  18. Oh my goodness, your girls are so cute!! I definitely want kids hopefully in the next couple of years, but I agree people should really think about all the implications of it beforehand. If only there was a pregnancy readiness test people could take!

    1. Yeah, that would be nice! Luckily there is a lot of information out there for people who are seeking it!

  19. Great post. I think that yes, in the long run life is cheaper without kids – but if you want them, they are worth every penny!

  20. The financial side of the decision should be less of an issue. I think it is far more important to really want children and willing to raise them well. It takes more effort and time than money. Most of what my wife and I did to raise successful children was either free or inexpensive. The rest of the things you can make less expensive choices.

  21. “This joy is a feeling that you cannot understand until you become a parent yourself…” – I would take it one step further and say that you can’t really understand what true love is until you have children of your own. People might think they understand love, but once you have a child it becomes so vividly clear. No amount of money is worth consideration on whether or not to experience a love like that!

    1. I can agree with that. I do have “true love” with my husband, but the love for your own child is completely different and amazing in its own way. There is nothing like it!

  22. “I’ve often told Greg that I wish I could’ve just laid an egg so that we could take turns sitting on it. Unfortunately, that wasn’t an option.” Ha, ha, ha 🙂

    Yes, having kids is worth it! My daughter is the BEST THING ever to happen to me 🙂 I feel so lucky to be her mommy!

    1. Wouldn’t that be awesome? Or I could just get a big incubator to keep the egg warm all day!

  23. I’m sure you hear this all the time but what cute daughters you have Holly 🙂 I know for certain that I want to have kids one day!

  24. I definitely want to be in a better place financially before starting a family, but like you said if you want to make it work you’ll find a way. My parents were dirt poor when they had kids and it all worked out fine because they figured out how to pay for it by working overtime and sacrificing some comforts.

  25. Thanks for the reminder. We have always seen kids as a blessing, and though financially it makes things tough, we’d have it no other way. Even if I was up for 2 hours last night 🙂 Seriously love that kid!

  26. I have to agree with you 100%. I have four, the youngest is 18. I love them more than anything else in the world. Watching them grow up and mature into young adults, helping them mature into responsible human beings, is an experiences that defies words and one that I would never give up.

  27. Very thought provoking post.

    I always found it amazing that anyone can have a child but you have to jump through a ton of hoops, paperwork, and fees to get a pet from the animal shelter. Such a head scratcher.

    1. eemusings says:

      Yeah, prettymind boggling that there are no barriers/restrictions, in a way, given what a major undertaking kids are!

  28. Great article Holly! I don’t have kids yet, but I’ve often thought about how much my life will change when I do – more specifically, the sacrifices I will have to make. I’m grateful I’ve waited this long to have kids, but reading this is a nice confirmation that when it does happen it will all be worth it.

    1. I’m glad we waited too. We had our first at 29 and it gave us some time to be married adults before jumping into parenthood.

  29. Holly, from what I’ve seen with my niece and nephew everything you stated is true. I’ve been crapped on by my niece, it leaked through her pants, and that didn’t bother me in the slightest bit. Maybe it’s one of the signs that we’re ready.
    And you’re right. We’ll find a way to make it work financially. Thanks for sharing my concerns.

  30. As others have already said, thanks for this great post! I think it’s wonderful to view your kids as an investment. After all, if we try to live wisely and save money…what’s all that money for if we don’t have someone to share it with??? Obviously, there are other ways to share money than to have kids (spouse, charitable giving, etc), but I still think it’s a worthwhile question.

    My husband and I are recently married and I think we have a few years before we’ll feel ready (financially and personally) to have kids. But this is definitely something that’s been on our minds. I have a coworker who used to be incredibly career driven — VP at a major Wall Street firm, etc. She had a daughter in her early 40s and she says its the BEST decision she’s ever made. She beams every time she talks about her daughter.

    1. Awwww…..thats wonderful that she is so happy with her decision. I’m sure that her daughter is the light of her life!

  31. Love it Holly! All the money in the world cannot match the happiness and joy that children bring into our lives. It is through them that we can build a legacy that will live on long after we are gone. I’m not saying raising children is easy, but doing what great thing in life is?

  32. Mr. Bonner says:

    It’s definitely ‘worth’ it 🙂

  33. Adorable girls you have there! All the things you think will drive you nuts with kids, mess, noise, spending money on them, all go away when you have one. I just got home from two hours sitting on a concrete step, after a looong day at work, to watch a PE Extravaganza at the elementary school. All my daughter did was kind of twirl a streamer and shine a flashlight, but holy crap, I swear she should get a Tony award!

    1. Awwww…..I know just what you mean!!! My kids are little movie stars too! LOL

  34. Having kids is never easy. Everything should be planned well and prepared. But though how much preparations are made, things never get easier in so many ways. But as you see your kids growing up, all your sacrifices are all worth it.

  35. Holly, really enjoyed this post as it’s something my wife and I will be considering in the upcoming year. We aren’t yet sure if or when we want children, but we do view them as a huge blessing! We are still young (23/22) so we have some time!

    It sort of makes me laugh because your post is related to mine about dogs. And one commentator mentioned that children and dogs are similar if you simply look at the expenses! Pretty though provoking…

  36. If I had ever really wanted kids I know that I would think seriously about the cost, but I know that I would have done it anyway. I really do kind of wish I had that “thing” that made me want kids…it makes me feel somewhat abnormal. Or maybe I’m just worried that society has silently judged me because I’ve never wanted them. Either way, I know most parents feel exactly like you do…that they are worth ever penny and more.

  37. I’m a little late to the party here, but I have to chime in. Because my wife and I struggle with infertility, both our kids are adopted, which means our “cost of kids” before even bringing them through the front door is somewhere north of $60,000 (combined between the two adoptions).

    If we want to have any more kids (and we do, most likely), we’re looking at either another $40,000 (or so) for another private adoption or $20,000ish for IVF.

    So does it make financial sense for us to have more kids? Of course it does. You put your money into the things you love. We love our kids, and I’d give any number of other things (including creating a serious delay in financial independence) in order to invest in the joy of a bigger family.

    1. Congratulations on your adopted family! You’re right…they are so worth it. It’s a love that cannot be explained!

  38. You’re babies are so beautiful and happy! I suspect you already know this too. 🙂 When we first got married, we didn’t think we wanted children and for many years our feelings never wavered. But once we got a bit older, our feelings started to change and we eventually became parents. It was our best decision, but I am glad we waited until it was right for us. They change everything, including us.

  39. I couldn’t agree more ”you make it work”. There is never a perfect time to have kids, there will always be something- a trip, debt, whatever. Having our daughter was the best thing in the world.

  40. ” I wish I could’ve just laid an egg so that we could take turns sitting on it ” lol. Bf and I are financially ready, but not emotionally or psychologically ready yet. There are still some things we want to do (traveling, etc.) before we settle down and devote ourselves to kids. Once you have they they become your world, so we want a little more “me” time and “us” time before we have any.

  41. They’re so worth it. And you’re right…if you’re asking that question you’re probably ready. I think it’s important to address your finances, but I think it’s more important to address if it’s a strong desire of yours and if you’re ready for all those intense sacrifices you mention. I didn’t plan it this way, but by having kids I was able to get more grants etc to go to school. So over my lifetime, I think their existence will have paid for itself rather than being an investment or financial sacrifice.

  42. As ours are now getting older, the challenges just shift. No longer are you up at all hours of the night, but the daily challenges– activities, school, discipline, life skills, family activities, etc.– really do pile on. It is frankly very sapping. No doubt it is worth it, but nobody should have any illusions that family life is anything but hard work!

    1. but WHY is it worth it? I love my niece, but I love giving her back to her parents! I’m not a parent and I’m an over-analyzer so I want to know! 🙂

      1. I can only speak for myself here.

        The love you have for your kids is not the same as the love you have for nieces and nephews- it just isn’t. It’s an entirely different experience. The love you feel for your own children is something that cannot be explained in words either.

      2. K, it’s not worth it. Your body will be ruined, you won’t have any personal time, you’ll have to spend huge amounts of money, and you’ll always be tired. You will have to sacrifice your personal hopes, dreams and desires. It will no longer be about you. Personally, there’s no way I would give up my wonderful life to have kids.

  43. They’re certainly an expensive undertaking, but I can’t imagine saying no to children only because of money!

    Those are two very cute soulmates you have there….love their little smiles! 🙂

  44. Financial Black Sheep says:

    I am all for examining all sides of a situation no matter what others think. The financial side does play a part in this decision, but in the end only you will know if you want to try and have kids or not. 🙂

  45. The more important question is, comprehensively, what are the effective costs of having kids?

  46. Outstanding post! Kids are totally worth it and definitely the best investment ever. I just had a baby boy and stuck with over $3,000 in medical bills, and totally broke. Doesn’t faze me and I would have another kid in a heartbeat. I’ve read so many heartless finanical blogs debating whether kids are worth the cost and I can’t beleive it….thank you for posting this.

  47. Completely and totally worth it.

    Everyday of my life, even the %#$@^ ones, is better with my kids in it.

    Plus, they’re investment that keeps getting better and better with time. Sure, there’s a bear market every now and then (Terrible 3s and Teens) but at the end of the road, family and friends are all that matters.

  48. Edward P. Small says:

    Don’t really care about money. I’ve never had much, probably never will. But the joy that comes from that good morning hug, or giant smile when he sees me when I come home from work…..now that it truly priceless!!

  49. Kids are definitely worth it!

    However, I do think its worth waiting a few years to accomplish financial goals before having kids if you can. Speaking as someone who had a child at 20 and was on social assistance, my husband and I waited 10 years before having my second child, because I wanted to ‘get my financial act together’. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard people say ‘if you wait until you can afford kids you’ll never have them, so just have them already’ – I dislike this saying very much. I say to the extent that you can, get your finances in order, then have kids as it is a much more difficult task once you have children.

    Kids are expensive, but not in the sense that you have to buy them material things. Kids are expensive, because once you have children your time is no longer your own. I feel that my extra time belongs to my children, they deserve it. Therefore, you lose some ability to ‘side hustle’ – not that it can’t be done, but you certainly do less than you would if you didn’t have kids.

    So, side-hustle, work until your hearts content, amass your wealth – then have kids and sit back and enjoy it. If I had a time machine, that’s what I would go back and tell my 19 year old self (before getting pregnant).

  50. Elizabeth S. says:

    We’ve been thinking about this ourselves lately. It’s great to see a blog post on it 🙂

  51. I’m impressed, I must say. Seldom do I come across a blog that’s both equally educative and entertaining,
    and let me tell you, you’ve hit the nail on the head.
    The problem is something which too few people
    are speaking intelligently about. I am very happy that I
    stumbled across this during my hunt for something
    relating to this.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.